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Taking Building to the Next Level
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Author:  Chansen [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:53 am ]
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Very well spoken Hesh. Being new to the craft and OLF myself, I very much want to hear what those with years of experience have to say. So far this site has been a hugely beneficial to me, and it is good to have staggered levels of expertise around to keep everyone interested and challenged.
Thanks for the post!!!
Christian
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:06 am ]
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Hesh, I agree with what you are saying.  It is not hard to disagree without becoming personal, but there is the shoe on the other foot too.  Some individuals take any criticism, or disagreement, personally, no matter how well it is presented.


I found when involved with establishing a Classical Guitar Society in my area, that we had great difficulty getting the local professional players involved to any real extent.  Even the ones who were teaching some of our members would'nt get involved.  I surmise that there is some professional jealousy involved in the phenomenon. The funny part was that we had several who were not particularly close by that supported the organization fully.  Go figure!


The more good / professional builders the better, if they are interested in sharing and learning.  Maybe some people feel that they have learned engough, and no longer need, or feel obligated, to do either.
Author:  D Stewart [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:08 am ]
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Great post Hesh. It is true that top builders would not get the same things out of this forum. When some of the threads decay into negative direction, it would rapidly turn off those that are here to help more than learn. I several recent threads, I have been amazed that we kept beating a dead horse, so to speak. Comments about Ervin's class especially could have been wrapped up quicker. Points were made and most were very civil especially at the beginning. Of course in a forum like this, everyone has the privilage of getting their 2 cents in. Mamma was right when she said "If you can't say anything nice, limit your comments so you don't hurt anyone's feelings". (or something like that)
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:50 am ]
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Hesh wrote:
" Let’s face it, guys who have built a few guitars should not be challenging Rick Tuner, Rick Davis, Kevin Gallagher, Al Carruth, or other guys in the craft who have clearly earned their stripes."

I'll let you in on a little secret: just because we've been at it a while doesn't mean we know everything. _Nearly_ everything, maybe, but once in a while even one of us old dogs can pick up something new.

The great thing about a list like this is the wide variety of backgrounds that people have. You might have picked up just the piece of information that I need and would never have seen, simply because it came out in your back yard first. That's one reason I'm here.

OTOH, just because somebody seems to be saying something wrong does not mean you should be disrepectful in pointing it out. In fact, it's hard to think of any instance where disrespect will do any good, and it often does a lot of harm. I'm not talking about some good-natured ribbing, of course: many people on this list are frinds from 'way back, and a few playful jibes that are seen for what they are just keep the tone light. But even when you've caught somebody in a bonehead statement, it's just not helpful to call them the 'syphillitic offspring of a basterd rat' or some such, even if you know it to be true. After all, you might be the next person to mis-speak.

The other thing, of course, is that when you catch me, or anybody else, for that matter, in what you consider to be a mistake, be sure that you understand what they really said, and that you are correct yourself. So much of what we talk about is subjective, and we tend to use words differently, so that what I mean when I say something is 'bright' might not agree with your understanding. A good example of this is the article in last month's 'Acoustic Guitar' on strings, where one experienced person said the 80/20 strings were 'brighter' than P-bronze, and another said they were 'darker', or something like that. But even when the point can be objectively 'proven', be certain you're right, and don't rub it in. Remember that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof', and be sure you have your data all lined up. Sometimes when you check something out that you 'know' is true, you find it's not. Better to find that yourself than to get dumped on in public.   
Author:  Brock Poling [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:05 am ]
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Excellent post Hesh! Lance and I have been wrestling with this very issue almost since the OLF began. It is imperative that we constantly remain students of the craft -- even after 40 years of effort and discovery.

Encouraging those who are in front of us on the path to participate is paramount to 1) Advancing our own efforts and 2) Helping to continue this "golden age" (whatever that means) of lutherie.

Most of the guys we look up to now "grew up" with the GAL and ASIA being their central vehicles of communication. The internet is new and for the top builders to feel comfortable here I think we need to establish a platform where they get the respect they deserve.

Al makes a great point that everyone can learn from the diversity of ideas presented here, but our own history at the OLF will show that (as a community) we have a bad habit of running off folks that have decades of experience.

I will be the first to admit, hearing criticism no matter how constructive is hard and doubly so in a public forum. However, I think it is a necessary component to growth. I see our efforts to "be nice" at times impede our ability to critically analyze topics. I think these are not mutually exclusive, but it takes a bit of a thick hide from everyone in the conversation to have those kinds of discussions. If we could keep them civil I would like to see more of these discourses happen.

And, this is not critisism to the top luthiers, but when these situations have occurred they (almost) invariably happen because a newer member fails to recognize who he is debating with and doesn't realize that this guy may have FORGOT more about guitars than he presently knows. The top guy gets frustrated that he is not being respected and leaves... So one guy out of a population of 1,400 ruins it for the rest of us. That is very unfortunate. Unfortunate for the luthier because he does not realize the vast majority of the community does recognize his contributions and would love to learn from him. And unfortunate for us (via guilt by association) we all look like a bunch of unrefined bafoons.

I sure wish we could find a way to short circuit these events. I go way out of my way to try and make the guys at the top of our craft feel welcome and respected.

I certainly think on a **** PERSONAL **** level everyone here needs to be treated as equals -- afterall none of us walk on water. They are *JUST* guitars afterall.      However, with respect to the craft we are each clearly at different points along the journey. Recognizing that with our respect and our willingness to learn would certainly benefit us all enormously.


Author:  KenH [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:10 am ]
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You hit the head right on the nail Hesh!


I dont think I could have come up with a better way of saying things if I had tried.

Author:  Dave White [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:19 am ]
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Hesh,

I thought hard about posting and it would probably be easier if I didn't but I'm afraid I just have to so please take all of this in the way it is intended - thoughtfully, respectfully but also saying what I think. So here goes with a number of points in no particular order:

- not all "leaders in their field" are good or even half-way decent teachers. Teaching and communicating is a skill (often underated) in it's own right and most of the really great teachers I have come across have not been the best "performers". This is true in most areas I have worked or "played" in.

- there is a reason/reasons that you don't see/hear much from some of the respected greats in this or other guitar building forums and imho it has little to do with the "treatment" they get there. They spend their time building and don't feel the desire or need to become active participants.

- this forum has contributions on a regular basis from a host of great builders already (and upcoming great builders) - Kevin Gallagher, Howard Klepper, Hank Mauel, Al Carruth, John Kinnaird, Tony Karol, Lance McCollum , John How, John Mayes, Paul Woolson, Lance Kregenbrink etc etc. Others contribute less frequently but still are here. This Forum is a fantastic place to be because of their participation.

- I learn something new and useful that I take into my building on average once a week here. This comes in equal measure from old-great builders and newbies. I suspect other greats who read more than they post also pick up new and useful tricks here. Newbies and their ideas and questions are the future lifeblood.

- "For better or worse, in time many of our guitars will look and sound like the guitars of other forum members." I don't really see the logic or reason why this would be the case or why the silent "great" builders starting to post here would necessarily influence this - most of these people have websites that show their instruments and some have sound clips.

- respect is earned and not given. In my recollection of some of the "episodes" that have resulted in people leaving here, mud was being slung pretty liberally from both sides.

- "Let’s face it, guys who have built a few guitars should not be challenging Rick Tuner, Rick Davis, Kevin Gallagher, Al Carruth, or other guys in the craft who have clearly earned their stripes. And we have all seen this happen." Imho challenge/questioning is a good thing as long as it is done with respect and a thirst for knowledge and a consideration of the responses. Most greats worth their salt thrive on this sort of thing. I would rather have this than unquestioning worship and sycophancy any day. By internet forum standards and peer group community standards the OLF is an incredibly well mannered place and is a credit to the membership here. Sometimes I do think we get our knickers in a twist way too much over life's little "events" that occur here.

As for your own personal building development plan, if you don't already have the sound you are searching for in your head I think you will get benefit from getting your guitars out amongst as many good builders and players as possibly asking thenm to be totally candid and listening to what they say. You can then adapt/experiment with your building based on the feedback. Then perhaps go on a course such as the Smogyi one or see if a great will let you attatch yourself to them to apprentice.
Author:  Sam Price [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:22 am ]
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Nice one Hesh!!!

I have a large amount of old-fashioned respect for professional luthiers. I am grateful for the information they kindly post for FREE on the internet, and if not free, then SOME information, enough to be getting on with, leaving the individual to work out the finer details.

A student is not above their teachers.

I have also learned through these experienced guys about the business of luthiery, reading many posts about the concept of efficient guitar building, running a business, and tried and true methods. The internet seems to empower the anonymous, making everyone (even the armchair theorists) seem like experts, which I can well imagine frustrates those in the business for many decades.

Any abuse levied against these masters of the trade will alienate them from the ametuers, and we will inevitably lose the expertise and wisdom we crave for.

SO, from an ametuer, I want to take this opportunity and show my IMMENSE gratitude to all professional luthiers who have been generous with their advice, whether given directly or indirectly (and the constructive criticism too!!)

Sorry about my waffle.

Author:  Philip Perdue [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:59 am ]
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Hesh,

Excellent post as usual. I would love to have the best in the business posting here on the OLF. It could be that some of the people you would like to visit here are not aware of the OLF. Maybe a letter or an email outlining the forum and its goals would be warranted to help them visit the OLF. Do the risk something by visiting and posting here? I don’t think so since we are they are already established professionals. I think the industry as a whole already knows that there are many ways to build a good guitar. As a result different approaches and ideas would be expected. It could be that some of these builders are either too busy or just don’t care for the internet or writing. I know of two professional builders that I respect who barely get to their computers because they never find the time or dislike typing. It would certainly be nice if there were more professional here and of course the elite names would be great. On the other hand I respect and appreciate all the members here who post from the professional to those like me who are searching to add to their limited knowledge.

Philip

Just ramblings below that I had no where to put. No need to read unless you just want to.




The OLF is a wonderful forum that is full of information with helpful people who support each other. I was a lurker here long before I ever posted and despite other forums that I came across I was always drawn here due to it camaraderie. I would not hesitate to ask a question or a problem here because I know that I will get answers or support. Other forums the answer to every question is “look in the archives”. Looking in the archives is always a good idea but some times they still don’t give you what you need. We all have different lives and experiences that intersect with instrument building. Lance and Brock have done a wonderful job of creating and maintaining the OLF so that we can enjoy building and learn together. As most of you can guess, all forums go through the same pains that we have here...it’s just the nature of the beast. The first rules as a member of any forum is too have thick skin and remember to read what you are saying before you post to make sure it truly says what you mean. The problems arise when one person feels that their thoughts or beliefs override someone else’s and then proceed to post in a non productive manner because they are in the right. Thus people come and go as members.
Every forum that I have ever participated in has similar problems. It always comes down to the core group of posters who mind their P’s and Q’s and who enjoy the environment of communication and sharing. Although I have limited building knowledge and am not much of a writer I appreciate that Lance and Brock have provided the opportunity for me to participate on this forum.
Author:  tippie53 [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:31 pm ]
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     I love this post. The guys that I admire and mentored me were Steve Kovacik , David LaPlante , Dave Nichols , Rick Davis , CF Martin Inc. and People of the net , Kathy Mats Abr as I can't spell . just to name a few.
     I so enjoy this group and will allways try to be respectful , Al Caruth I have had the pleasure of meeting at ASIA 2003 and 2005. There are so many great builders . I try and pass on all they taught me and give back as much as possible.
     Information shared is education and I hope we all learn from each other
john hall
blues creek guitars
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:37 pm ]
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Hesh, Well said. No controversy to what you said. It is right on.

My Somogyi post brought up some interesting issues. I was glad that as a
group we could discuss the issues, Pros and Cons with out any attacks on a
personal level.

Criticism is also a good thing when it is not personal. I remember I posted a
thread about my new bridge design and I specifically asked for both positive
and negative feedback. Everytime someone said something negative I got a
PM apologizing.    Good criticism with out being personal is one the best
ways to get better.

Author:  rajones19 [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:33 pm ]
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A few years back I was active on a mandolin-related list. It was (and still is) aimed more at players than builders, though there were a number of builders that were regulars as well. To address the very issue you're discussing here, they organized a "Guest of the Week" program. Basically each week there was a guest, either a player or builder, who agreed to hang out on the list and answer questions. We all submitted names as suggested guests, and somebody was elected to approach them and explain our program. The response was amazing.

To avoid a lot of repetition, all questions were sent to an appointed individual who acted as sort of a buffer. He/she would sort through the questions, compile similar questions if necessary, and forward them in batches to the guest. The guest would respond back to the list. It was hugely popular, and we got ALL the big names - just about anybody who was anybody in the mandolin world participated. At one point we even had a "Mandolin Builder's Super-Summit" weekend. Fourteen of the primo mandolin builders - including the likes Mike Kemnitzer (Nugget), Lynn Dudenbostel, John Monteleone, Steve Gilchrist, to name the biggies - answered our questions about how they approach specific processes, decisions, you name it. It was great. This was all done out of the kindness of their hearts and out of their mutual desire to keep the art alive. The Super Summit weekend, in fact, was the builder's idea - not ours. They all wanted to participate;. A few, in fact, were turned away because the moderators knew it could get out of control even at fourteen.

The archives of of the guests are still available here, though it appears the last time they did it was May of 2004. The archived entries have been edited down a bit, unfortunately; when it was all 'live' on the site, there was more information there. Man we were burnin' up the internet. The amount of information that was spread far and wide during that time was amazing - and it went on weekly for almost a year and a half.

It's hard to tell, of course, if any of the top guitar builders would be willing to subject themselves to something like this - but in the mandolin world they jumped at the chance. The one thing that has always blown me away about the world of luthiery, regardless of instrument, is the willingness of builders, even those at the very top of their craft, to take time to pass on information to the rest of this. I personally experienced this a few weeks ago with one of the mandolin builders I mentioned above. You'd think somebody would come up with a new cool way to do something, and keep it to themselves - but most of the time, they cannot WAIT to share it with everybody - even if it costs them valuable time to do it. This is, for the most part, one of the most open communities you can possibly be a part of.

Wow - this post makes up for the last four months of lurking quietly, doesn't it . I'll shut up now. Really.
Author:  KenMcKay [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:27 pm ]
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Hesh wrote: "Once you have learned to build a decent guitar where you do well with the general wood working of guitar building, you have got the neck/body geometry right, and have good fit and finish how do you take your work to the next level?"

1 Take them to musicians and get feedback.
2. compare your work to mass produced instruments and ask yourself honestly where it ranks.
3. find out what is a really good instrument. Why do some builders have a long waiting list, what really makes them great.
4. Choose a specific model and perfect it.

Most of this can't be found on the web!

Good luck Hesh, you seem to have all of the attributes that would thrust you into greatness.
Author:  J.L.K. Vesa [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:16 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Hesh1956]



Plus considering that the best luthiers to ever live are still alive


[/QUOTE]

You must be talking about steel string guitar makers only, or I have to argue with you about that.



Author:  MaxBishop [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:45 pm ]
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Hesh and all - Thanks for sharing those thoughts! all of this is right on as far as I am concerned. I am a newbie builder and am dying to learn how to make great sounding (flamenco and classical) guitars. Also, being (relatively) advanced in age I feel the need to move as quickly as possible towards this goal.

All this is to say that the OLF has helped me immensely to this point. And I want to give my sincere thanks to all of you who share, contribute and support. You are among the best people it has been my priviledge to be associated with.

Muchas gracias,
Max
Author:  af_one [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:21 am ]
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Did I mention I am just happy to be here?
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:44 am ]
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I think Rick Jone's suggestion has a lot of merit. If you want more experts to participate you have to provide the right environment, meaning a special area of the forum set up into more of a classroom/lecture approach.
Author:  rajones19 [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:01 am ]
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Barry - that's exactly what made the CGOW program work. The guests were protected from the masses - they weren't bombarded with individual questions from 80 of us asking "french polish or spirit varnish?", for instance. They were free to sit and answer various batches of questions whenever it was convenient for them, and just post them back to the list. Some of them made themselves freely available for future contacts, some did not - but for a week, they were coming back with lots of great stuff. There's nothing quite like hearing it from the horses' mouths.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:01 am ]
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Yes, I think that is a good idea.

Author:  martinedwards [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:18 am ]
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someone way up there said the pros don't have time......

in some cases that is true, but there are some (OK lets name Rick Turner) who is EXTREMELY active on a few fora I frequent and is spectacularly helpful when people ask him anything. He's proud of bieing a bit.... well, abrasive, and I've described him as the Simon Cowell of Lutherie. After you've licked the wounds and got the stitches out, you KNOW that he was right!!!

As a TEACHER though, I often find that having a master try to explain something to a complete beginner is too big a gap. for ME, someone who has built three guitars will still remember the pitfalls better than someone whos built 500. BOTH "teachers" have something to offer the noob.

I'd love to see more of the masters in here too, but some (OK most) of the completed builds I see in here are amazing, as is the advice and help given by the whole community.

The atmosphere in here is very mature and still fun. kepp it up one and all!!
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